Angelika Selle and Susan Fegley Osmond
August 26, 1984
East Garden
Question: Recently you were coordinator of the 21-day workshop for blessed children. What is your approach to leadership?
Hyo Jin Nim: When I look at church members, I know that they are suffering. The church needs the right leadership -- leaders who totally understand Father's heart, without any misunderstanding. It's like a book; you have to understand the whole thing. If you have a 500-page book and you read 100 pages, you might feel that you got the whole essence, but you can't be sure. How can you give something to other people for their well-being that you are not sure of yourself? How can you advise them?
And we are talking about the restoration -- not a book, not just a simple thought or a simple state of mind. How can we take this lightly? I am amazed sometimes by some people who take it lightly. I surely believe they need to open up. They're young, they're adolescent. They think they are somebody, but in my eyes, they are young kids. Many people have to repent.
For example, I can beat up almost anybody physically. I know I can do it. But some people think like that even though they cannot do it. I went to martial arts contests and I was number one. I mean, that credits me to be somebody who can beat up everybody. But I don't like to think like that. I try not to think like that even about a person who does think like that. When somebody touches me in a way I don't like I say to myself, he doesn't know, he is young. I can always punch him, but it's much harder to overcome, to let him go and pass by. Just because someone is a black belt who feels bold and proud and sticks his shoulders up, sorry, but should I bow down to you? We have to have leaders who understand that. Just because they feel they have something more than other people doesn't mean they have it. Don't take pride in yourself; take pride in others. Give them pride. You arc the fertilizer for the soil that has been infertile. But if the fertilizer doesn't want to fertilize the barren ground because of its pride, what good is it?
When the world is suffering from lack of food, develop the barren land. You have to do that. I tell the blessed children: Just love even one single thing. I hang around with them and, while I see much that is wrong, I try to see the good. Many are still adolescents, and so, many things go wrong, but it will take time for them to understand. I open myself up to them. Sometimes when others make a mistake I quickly bow my head and don't say anything, letting them realize on their awn what is wrong. I don't use forcefulness or make them suffer and struggle inside. I try to avoid that all the time.
When there is something to be fixed. I try to tell them in a way they would really understand, never raising myself up, because I realize it. I try to be a part of the person I am talking to: I once was like you, and I went through this kind of path, these kinds of things, and I felt. This is right. What do you think? For your sake I tell you follow that. I really sincerely hope you will follow that.
I don't ask to be respected, I do not do things to gain respect or authority. Why do I need that? I know who I am. Why should I want to be respected? I don't do it for that reason; I do it for you. So you can go out and help other people just like you. I always say to them: Hey, I am not saying this for myself, I am saying this for your sake. You can go out and earn respect from other people. I want you to earn respect from other people. That's why I tell you this. You have to have pride in yourself because you are a Unification Church member, you are a blessed child. I have pride in myself because I am True Parents' child, the son of Father. You have to have pride in who you are. You have to go on speaking with a true voice. Once you do that, I am helping you.
The only thing I am doing is helping you to be better, to gain more respect, to gain the respect of generations to come, to be a hero in your family tree. Is that bad of me? Am I doing the wrong thing to you?
Even when I tell people to do things, I try never do it to make myself greater. I am a very ungreedy person. In my Kingdom of Heaven, I would want to have just a little stone shack by a cliff overlooking the ocean. I don't like all those synthetic-fiber, plastic houses; I like natural houses I love rock and wood houses. I'd make a fireplace and hunt for my own food. I am a very simple man. The whole sky is my roof, the forest is my house. What more do I need than some place to sleep, protected from the rain and all those natural things that can sometimes weaken me.
What I want is something that lasts forever. I don't look for something that is glorious for only a moment, because then I would be just a shooting star hero. I don't want to be that. I would rather be a simple, humble man and last forever, than be strong and bold and live for a second. I would rather be a simple man. That's what I believe in. I am sure God does not disagree. He built all this for us! You don't have to try to claim it for yourself.
From left to right, back row: Jin Sung Nim holding Shin Goon Nim, Hyo Jin Nim, Mother, Kook Jin Nim, Hyun Jin Nim holding Shin Bok Nim, Jin Whi Nim. Front row: Kwon Jin Nim, Hyung Jin Nim, Young Jin Nim.
Question: How can members come to understand Father?
Hyo Jin Nim: For me to really see Father is not to evaluate him as a resource that lives in this physical world right now. I never try to compare my father's thought to the kind of concepts I grew up with in the world -- concepts that I am attached to or that I can easily relate to. I try to avoid this.
First I try to get a glance of the whole, but it has more meaning than you can comprehend readily. How can you tell a depth of a thousand feet when you are only used to a certain level? You do it step by step.
We are talking about the whole thing, the world's future. If you can understand that in a moment, I congratulate you. I mean, even schoolwork is hard to understand. Even solutions to mathematical problems don't come out perfect just like that. It takes a long time to find the solution. But the path of the future of the world! If you really try to think about it, to really understand it, you have to take it step by step.
First understand yourself before you really try to understand Father's vision. Try to realize where you stand, in this church, in your life, in your own vision, in Father's vision. You have to ask yourself that question before you ask yourself how you are going to understand the restoration of the world. How can you give yourself a perfectly good answer if you don't know yourself? Think about that. That's what I believe.
Question: How do you learn where you stand?
Hyo Jin Nim: For example, even within my family there are many quarrels. Sometimes those fights are over nothing. They try to find out who is right and who is wrong. And I see that if I listen to one side it makes sense; if I listen to the other, it makes sense too. How can I decide? I spend time with my brothers and sisters. I play a very important role in this family. Many, many times my brothers and sisters are confused about what they see in reality, even in relationships between members. And because I have stepped a little ahead of them, I can tell from my experiences how to be a better person in Father's eyes.
I can help them right now by understanding Father, and by understanding where I stand with my brothers and sisters, guiding them to the pathway Father wants them to take. That's what he wants me to do at this moment. Because even though I am worried about the world situation, I can do nothing about it now. What can I do? Right now, this is what I am doing.
It's the same principle for you. Let's say you're on a fundraising team that goes around with ten people. Find yourself first: okay, I have this kind of character to show to God, this kind of character to be proud of. At that moment you stop. That's your mission. Show that character to the other people. That's give and take. And other people too, if you find some good in them, or if they find some good in themselves, stop at that moment. Take whatever level other people give you, stop expecting more, and try to assure other people. Not in an arrogant way, but in a humble way. What is humbleness? Always bowing, always agreeing on things? Being humble, I believe, is to be true for God. Not for one's own benefit: for God's benefit, for another's benefit. I am trying to do something according to the way God looks at it, the ways of God's heart. That is humbleness.
Let's say the leader drives the van too fast and scares the sisters. And I say to him: "Sir, I know it is very frustrating to drive all day, and you're trying to get rid of that frustration by driving as if on a freeway.... We don't mind if you do that on a straight road, but please, try to avoid that on a mountain road." In a way I'm saying I understand where you stand, but please try to understand us in this kind of way. That's give and take, too. You understand him, but you are also explaining your feelings freely. Everybody is going to benefit. Then everybody is safe and they don't have to endure the kind of fright they had from going at that speed. This is just an example I am giving you. I am sure a lot of things like that happen in fundraising, witnessing, and in many other situations. You have to really be keen. You have to really study. Father is not just sending you out there to waste your time.
Let's say you see a really mean-looking guy standing in the corner. You go up to him and say: "Hey, man, you look like hell. Why don't you change? You are good. You are God's child. You've got to change right away.– You say it for his benefit, but do you think he will gain from that? He wants to kill you. You can feel it inside.
But instead try going up to him, dressed like him, and say, "Hey, man, how are you doing?" and become friends with him. Not to agree with what he believes, just to achieve your means -- to change his view, help him. I changed myself first; gave first that's giving at that moment. Giving is not just a material thing or just giving your words or giving your heart. Sometimes by even doing something that you don't believe in, you change for the better. Make a blueprint in your mind, a strategy. First, I have to win his heart. How can I do that? By being receptive to him, I'd wear my dungarees and cut-off sleeves. I would go to him and hang around with him for a while; then I'd say to him, "Hey, man, can I be friends with you? You know I am okay. You know where I am coming from. Listen to me, hear me out. I feel there is more to it; I feel there is more to a man than showing your masculinity. What do you think, man? Let's try to share something more positive. You have been living like this for all your life. Don't you think that now is the time to change for the better?"
Why don't we do that? Why don't we do that? That's what Father means by give and take. You can always progress.
You cannot have hard feelings, you cannot have hate, if you are willing to sacrifice yourself to come to the other person's level. Always embrace. That way you can always win. I had those kinds of friends. One kid was the worst kind of person you can think of: a drug-oriented, sex-crazed maniac. But I fought with him side by side. I fought for him. He changed. To my words, he'll listen. Because I am his life savior; in a physical way I saved him.
There may be some people in the world who don't know the meaning of a life savior. Maybe some people out there do. I am sure there are some people who really are bad, but I am talking about people who have the potential to be on God's side but right at this moment are lost in the dump. I am sure that maybe less than one percent of humanity is completely dark. The cruel people who hate and kill people and children--even those people we have to change. We have to try and do it if we can.
From left to right, back row: Hoon Sook Nim, Nan Sook Nim holding Shin Jeung Nim, In Jin Nim, Mother, Un Jin Nim, Ye Jin Nim. Front row: Jeung Jin Nim, Hyung Jin Nim, Sun Jin Nim, Yeon Jin Nim.
Question: Not many of us members know the True Family very well. Hyo Jin Nim, could you please characterize, from your point of view, your brothers and sisters?
Hyo Jin Nim: Ye Jin and I don't really agree with each other so much. She is very, very strong. It's amazing. If she were a brother about my age in this position, we'd never get along. But because she's a woman, I feel protective toward her.
I have to understand her. We sometimes have a different point of view, and that puts me on the line to see both sides, to make a more clear judgment -- to reach a more clear answer. She helps me in many ways. She does not tell me directly, but just by being with her, and sometimes by arguing with her, she expands my direction and my ideas. "Well, ' some people think like this..." Wow! Ye Jin thinks of points that I didn't even think of. That is good.
She is very strong, but there is more fragrance of love than there would be with an older brother. If I had an older brother, maybe he would be too rough and tough, too sharp and overbearing, but because Ye Jin rounds off the corners I really respect her. She does not know that, but I do respect her.
In Jin is very, very emotional, very heartistic, pure, and good: but sometimes she is stubborn. That is good. Because she is so emotional and heartistic she is very sensitive to everything that goes on in the church. If you look at her while she is going around speaking, you can see she picks things up right away because she is so sensitive. That is another greatness.
Heung Jin, oh, he was a man! I was proud of my brother! I always brag about my brother. I am physically strong -- a kind of horse -- but he is more broadened than I am in his feelings for what he believes in. He gives his life. Unto his life he'll do what he believes in.
He loved his fellow man. He loved the people around him. He was always trying to think of others before himself. Let's say he was hungry and eating a hamburger. If some other kids came he would say, "Hey, do you want it?" That's pretty hard to say. When you are hungry that's pretty hard to say. When you want something for a long time and then you have it, it's hard to give it away, but he does. I love that. To that I bow my head, I humble myself to him. I know he is my younger brother, but still in that sense I need to learn. That is a great man, a true man.
Un Jin is very diplomatic, in a way, and very humble. Sometimes too humble. She always puts herself down. She knows her potential, and she knows her limit. Still, she likes to always humble herself. She does not say much, even though she may feel something. She doesn't like to discuss things with other people, even suffering. She wants to hold it inside herself, because she feels that she might hurt other people. She might make them struggle in their minds -- burden them -- so she holds herself back. That is a greatness, too.
Most people want to get out their frustration and anger, trying to justify their actions. She doesn't want to do that. She always holds herself back. She is always quiet. I need to learn that.
Hyun Jin is very, very witty. He can make me laugh when I am in the most anguished state, but he also respects me. He will give unto his life when he believes in something or when he respects somebody. He will be a great helper to Father. All my brothers are manly. They cannot stand injustice or wrong. But when Hyun Jin finds someone who has more of a certain quality than he does, he is the kind of person who stops at that moment and humbles himself. He becomes quiet and really tries to clear his mind, clearing away even the smallest thought that maybe in some way he is better than that person. In that kind of way he is purifying his mind for what he believes in, for the truth. He purifies his mind. That takes a great man.
Kook Jin is very, very like a heavenly judge. He likes to make everything perfect. It has to be perfectly right according to the Principle. He doesn't try to just do what he thinks is right, but he judges it according to the Principle. He is also very lovable -- almost like a teddy bear. The tone of his voice is always like an echo from his heart. It rings out with truth. It's not just solid, not just penetrating. It's not sharp in a judgmental way, but it really rings. Even sometimes he judges me, but he makes it sound so good, so understanding, so reasonable. That is another gift. When most people judge, they are sharp; but with Kook Jin it rings from his heart. That's different, totally different. That is a beautiful person.
Kwon Jin is very diplomatic in a way, too. Maybe he learned that because he has a lot of brothers and sisters, but it's his heart. He does not say even little things like, "Hyo Jin, can you buy me this?" or "Can you take me there?" But he will say, "Hey, Hyo Jin, do you have time? What are you doing today? Do you have plans to go out? Are you going in this direction?" And I say, "Why do you ask me?" "Oh, I am just wondering." "Well, I am going to get some guitar strings. Yes, I am going in that direction." "Can I go with you?" He will not come to the point, not even then. As I go along, and l go there to buy it, on the way back he will say (before we get to that place), "Hyo Jin, do you like video games?" I say, "Why?" "Well, I am just wondering." And he says, "Well, there is a video game place over here, a video arcade. Do you want to go? There is one really gad game there. It's really fun. You can shoot all those missiles and stuff." And he tries to talk to me about what I like.
He is extremely sensitive and keen, but also very careful. He always subtly directs me to where he wants me to go. That is another talent.
In the little ones, their characters haven't really shown up that much, because they haven't been going out mingling with friends or other people. Sun Jin's character hasn't fully shown itself yet. She is only seven years old, but she is very pleasant to be with. Some kids that age are very, very rude and only want to do things their own way. I have always been studying the bigger ones -- trying to be with them, to understand them, and to help them. I know them, but young girls... Sun Jin is very pleasant to be with. She always makes oppa -- big brother -- happy. Makes me proud of her. It's good to have a sister like that.
She is very plump right now and real cute. But that's just external. The kind of smile she gives me is not just made up. She smiles from her heart. I really feel that.
Young Jin is a very knowledgeable person; very, very philosophical.
Hyung Jin will be like a saint -- very loving and caring. You can see it in his face. He is always calm. A little boy's face: peaceful.
Yeon Jin will be the little one to stand up for the older ones. Sometimes some kind of a mediator is needed to avoid the gap between myself and her generation or level. When she grows up she will bridge that gap. She has a kind of steady, careful, but very penetrating, piercing character.
Jeung Jin will be the unity of our family. She'll bring happiness to our family, with the kind of cute things that she does, because she is the youngest one. Her character is like that; she is always trying to make people joyful. She always calls me (Hyo Jin Nim imitates in a high-pitched voice) Cho chug oppa -- first brother. Even though I am grumpy because I am thinking too much, she always clears that away.
Jin Whi has a very noble personality. Even though he feels things inside, things other people don't understand, he will hold them in until other people realize that that is the right step.
He has the right personality for the husband of Father's first daughter. He embraces everybody. That's the only way he could gain respect from our family. If he were a strong, bold, arrogant person, he couldn't make it in this family.
Jin Sung, I love him very much, not just because he is my friend, but because of the kind of person he is. He is very smart. He is sharp, but it takes a real man to turn this sharpness into humbleness. But he is like that. He is a very caring person -- a very serving person. That kind of person is perfect for In Jin because she is heartistic and emotional. She needs a man who wants to serve and help her, love her and let her talent and natural goodness blossom. Father picked the best one, I think. I was for it, too. Father asked me, "Who do you think out of these three men?" I picked Jin Sung. They are all my good friends. I knew them all very well, but Jin Sung is the best for In Jin.
Hoon Sook is a very committed person. She is very beautiful and artistic inside. It's very hard to cling onto a spiritual marriage. She can do that. She has a will. She might look fragile, but she's really a strong person who can love deeply; she is one who can really appreciate beauty with the utmost love. And that is the most beautiful thing -- loving somebody in spirit. What higher love is there? She doesn't just understand it; she can carry it out. That's why sometimes she is not so open, but very quiet -- that quietness is needed, so I don't say anything to her. She has so much to carry out; other people have to understand.
My wife, Nan Sook, is good for me. That's all I can say. I don't want to brag about her -- she is my wife. She is perfect for me. Let me say that not many girls can be good for me because I expect very much. She puts me in my place; as a husband, as Father's blessed child. She is perfect for me.